Curse

Esprit · May 13, 2009, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Unless Paragon's see a rather spectacular change in their abilities, a change to a few skills will doubtfully render them useful again. You may see a month of meta of players trying to use (abuse) the changes, but in the end, Paragon's will fall off of players' purview once more.

Lishy · May 13, 2009, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by own age myname

Paragons used to own HA. But those days have died...

This.

But only in the next two days will tell whether ANET gives a damn in the next update. I want my skill buffs

Besides. I'm stuck with a stupid, useless Harry Potter looking spear-chucking Paragon as my main in PvE, yet with no builds to play. Which sucks, because I accomplished a LOT on him!

wetwillyhip · May 13, 2009, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Although OP i do see para's now being used in RA, AB, and TA with the dazing spear spammer...still, that is the only build i see in pvp. There seems to be a single use for paras in pvp and one in pve, period. I leveled my para through NF, then i forgot about her.. i mean.. voltaic spears almost aren't worth equipping for her since everything else about her is not that great. i would agree with everything else said.

Skyy High · May 13, 2009, 12:41 AM // 00:41

The only reason people only use paragons as imbagons is because, well, that build is so damn powerful there's no reason why you'd use anything else. Without it, a paragon can do just as much damage, ranged, as a warrior, especially when you take into consideration all the damage boosting they're doing for all the other physicals in the party. If you want people to play something other than imbagon, you're just gonna have to nerf TNTF and SY, because buffing paragons right now would be absurd, the intelligence of the average PUG player notwithstanding.

Alleji · May 13, 2009, 12:43 AM // 00:43

I'm fine with them being useless because cranking the numbers back up will make them absolutely broken, as they have been at release. There's no middle ground using this approach.

The only way I can see the class alive is to smiter's boon the whole motivation line and make chants/shouts unstackable. Then you can fiddle with the (remaining) numbers and see if that helps.

...or they could buff the skills in PvE only. Imbagon already exists, so PvE isn't about to get more stupid - there will just be more options for stupid.

Lishy · May 13, 2009, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Skyy High, I would actually disagree.
Even without those two skills, there's still a major lack of strategies.
The best one I've seen in action as of yet is daze spam. And we all know what that accomplishes in PvE.

As a paragon, I rarely use my motivation line, and I would not use my command line if not for Anthem of Weariness. That said, those attributes have some of the most useless skills, such as Anthem of Guidance.
A major problem with Paragon's motivation line, for example, is that they can't do enough with it. Honestly, I'd like to see more than hard-to-apply heals that everyone else can do better.
They're not the best batteries and we all know BIP can do whatever a Paragon does, energy wise, better. And we all know Ritualists also make waaaaay better healers than a Paragon, despite using the same concept of a hybrid.
The motivation line is practically useless.

As for command, it isn't as bad. But they should give it a better offense.
"Find Their Weakness!" is bad because is requires a critical hit. This might be synergetic with sins, but it's still overall not worth a slot.
"Help Me!" is absolutely useless. Period.
And Image:"Brace Yourself!" should be party-wide.
Paragons, especially motivation, is a broken concept that may as well be re-worked.

Nessar · May 13, 2009, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Paragons seriously NEED a rework/buff or something done to them. I lvl'd my para to 20, got through eotn and now shes my mule. Shes pretty durn useless unless I run imbagon, but I'm not going to bother to get the skills since I don't play her anyway. Hell, my ranger plays as r/p and can do it better then my para. Same with w/p.
Paras desperately need some attention :/ Along with rits, but they are still useful, just their prim att sucks.

Shayne Hawke · May 13, 2009, 01:00 AM // 01:00

PvP doesn't need Paragons. For that matter, PvP doesn't really need any of the expansion classes, and it seems as of late that it's more the case that core classes are being used and expansion classes' skills are being abused.

In PvE, there's pretty much one definitive role for the Paragon: party support. The Imbagon is the optimal build for the Paragon to do this, so why run anything else? The answer for this would be to give Paragons something else they can do that would make them be important, but I'm no expert to Paragons, so the only advice I could suggest is to give them more damage potential in PvE. Straight nerfing the Imbagon would be a nice solution, for the sake of making PvE challenging, but if it turns out that the only reason players take Paragons is for the Imbagon build, then killing the build may just kill players' desire for partying with that class.

FoxBat · May 13, 2009, 01:05 AM // 01:05

TNTF is enough reason to bring paras alone, there are some funny near-perma TNTF builds that at least let you do a little more than mindless SY spam.

Antares Ascending · May 13, 2009, 01:16 AM // 01:16

.

I usually just shake my head at 'another' (insert class here) R Suxors but the Paragon is.....almost good.

Handy in pve for buffs but my Para is a male mule in a dress

Raudic · May 13, 2009, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bowstring Badass

Can the same be said about assassins?

this is true, sins are only used for perma and nothing else

also mesmers and ritualists are in the same boat

kazjun · May 13, 2009, 01:23 AM // 01:23

I'd probably care more if paras hadn't stolen and broke all my warrior shouts till anet nerfed tactics into oblivion...

Shayne Hawke · May 13, 2009, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raudic

this is true, sins are only used for perma and nothing else

also mesmers and ritualists are in the same boat

Without Shadow Form, Assassins would still have MS-DB, which would still be pretty effective, but would put them in line with Warriors and Dervishes for frontliner roles.

You must have said Mesmers because of [[Cry of Pain]? Last I checked, Fast Casting didn't really mean bull in PvE, and any profession can use Cry of Pain correctly with proper time investment. In fact, I'd say that there are other professions that use it better.

Ritualists just have a non-useful primary.

Gift3d · May 13, 2009, 01:41 AM // 01:41

There's only a few great paragon skills that are useful in a bunch of areas in the game, and those are used more easily and often more efficiently as a secondary profession.

On the other hand though, i absolutely love paragons.

Skyy High · May 13, 2009, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Skyy High, I would actually disagree.
Even without those two skills, there's still a major lack of strategies.
The best one I've seen in action as of yet is daze spam. And we all know what that accomplishes in PvE.

Just running a couple of good spear attacks, Aggressive Refrain, GTFE!, and a chant or two, and you have a ranged attacker with sword war DPS that buffs the damage output of the entire party. That's not bad, and it's not a "lack of strategies", unless you're going to call the warrior bad because all they can do is kill stuff really well.

Yeah, motivation sucks, but so does tactics, and no one is saying that warriors suck. Shouts are party-wide and unstrippable, is it any wonder that they have to be inherently weaker than monk, rit, and nec options for healing, prot, and energy gain? At least it's sometimes worth throwing a motivation skill in with a few dump points in the att, which I do on occasion with [Energizing Finale] and [Finale of Restoration] on a bar with SY!.

Masmar · May 13, 2009, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Quote:

with regards to pvp - HA, GvG, TA,RA,HB do you ever see a paragon? NO.

Yes, Paragons call in HA

Lishy · May 13, 2009, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Skyy High, keep in mind that the Warrior is WAY more versatile than Spears. Warrior has as much as ten times the skills a Paragon has.
I would not compare them unless barbed spear to sever artery.

LONGA · May 13, 2009, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Reason why paragon suck in PvE is that most paragon builds only effective in certain team builds.And imbagon build is the most easy to use that can be use in any team.

My favorite is "Goes for the eye!" + Keen arrow.Very good spike damage if done right.

FengShuiDove · May 13, 2009, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raudic

this is true, sins are only used for perma and nothing else

Incorrect.

I agree that Paragons need a revamp in both PvE and PvP. Unlike Ritualists, whose problem could really be solved with a good rework of Spawning Power, the Paragon's skillset itself is either going to be drastically over or under powered just because of the functionality.

Obrien Xp · May 13, 2009, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Shhh...dont tell them paragons are overpowered. It is best to let them think we are underpowered...

With you on that one. I played on mine all through eotn etc. She is epic imo!

i thought "why the hell did I bother with warrior?"

In gw2 its going to be my main, well a w/p norn "valkryie" to be exact. (warrior with spear mastery and templar helm unless theres a better wingedish helm in gw2.)